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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 16 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 261

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. QDS design: Van Rijn class Scout/Trader
         2. Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.
         3. Van Rijn class Scout/Trader addendum
         4. Question on Traveller Chronicle #10
         5. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
         6. Re: Realism
         7. SolSec Announcement #224
         8. Western Influence (No Cowboys)
         9. Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
        10. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
        11. Sales figures
        12. Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)
        13. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
        14. Re: Mars\Moon Stuff
        15. Re: Culture and Realism 
        16. Re: Sales figures

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:13:06 MST7
Subject: QDS design: Van Rijn class Scout/Trader

	I was mucking about with QDS again (actually, checking to make sure
the archive copies of my other designs had indeed been upgraded to
QDS 1.1) and came up with a design for a Scout Trader.  What is a
Scout Trader? essentially it's a little bigger than a Far trader, and
is designed to be sent out into the 'wilds', to poke around and maybe
pick up some interesting stuff.  These ships are typically the second
wave of exploration, after the scouts.  These are the people who
actually see what trade is out there; as such they're strictly
speculative ships, and are probably run at a loss by their corporate,
mercantile union, or Sylean Confederation owners.

The Van Rijn class Scout/Trader (Thanks, Leonard, for reminding me of 
Nicolas' last name, I'd been racking my brains for it)

Tons 300 	Volume 282	Cost 150.7 (113) mCr
Crew  6    	Pass H/M 0/4*	Low 0
Cargo 75.9	Controls Fib	TL 12

Size 8      	Jump 2		Manuever 3G
Civ. Laser 	2-0-0-0   	 	Power Plant 460
				Fuel  62 /s/r
				Sandcaster 1 (30)
				Sensors A10 P4 J10
				Armor 20
				Stucture 12 (Disc S)

Accomodations: 10 Sm. Staterooms
Workstations: 6 

	These ships have decent legs, and some (minimal according to you 
weapons freaks out there) armament.  However, their mission is to 
approach worlds, often for the first time, on a friendly basis, and 
initiate trade.  They'll not want to spook potential trading 
partners, so they'll make sure flight is their first response.

	Of course they can't duke it out with some of those heavily armed 6 
G SDB's everyones been making, but these don't go into systems where 
the scouts think there is a heavily armed presence....that's the job 
of the Sylean Navy.

	Of course, as I see it, the scouts don't often land on a world in a 
first survey...they'll pop into a system, take pictures and pop out.  
The Scout Traders will often come in next, if the natives seem 
friendly.

	The Scouts only go 'to ground' in situations where the politics 
require it, such as when a world is suspected as a threat, and more 
intel is needed to identify or eliminate the threat.


Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 15:06:15 -0600
Subject: Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.

On 07/16/96 at 12:28 AM,  shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
said:

>> You could sustain a viable civilization at a lower level of technolo
>> than you might think.  You don't *have* to have gravtics or even
>> fusion.  You do have to have access to minerals, energy, and the too
>> to produce the things you need.

>I'm *certain* that WWII tech levels are sufficient to maintain a
>civilization in an asteroid belt or airless world, as long as they
>had access to icy bodies in the outer system.  WWI tech *might* be
>able to do it.  And mid-to-late 1800s tech would be about the limit.

I agree about the tech going back as far as Victorian levels, as long
as we're talking about the civilization staying out of gravity wells
greater than..oh say, 1/5g.  If they have to boost onto an off more
massive bodies they're going to need to maintain proportionally higher
tech levels.

In the inner system solar-thermal and solar-electric could provide you
with the thrust and power you need to move around, to generate
electricity, process and recycle air/water/etc.  You'd need a pretty
good grasp on chemistry and mineral processing too.

I'm not sure they'd ever have to go into the outer system.  If the
system was similar to ours there would be millions of small bodies
orbiting in the inner system, and they would be about to get to an
asteroid belt too.  With all that material and the capture of an
occasional comet they would probably have enough without *ever* going
into "the great cold..the dark forever."

>But for work in the outer system, you really need either *huge*
>amounts of fuel, or you need at least radio-isotope power packs, if
>not nuclear reactors. (Radio-isotope power packs use the heat from
>the decay of short lived isotopes to generate electricity)

The outer system is a different story.  Out beyond 4 or 5AU, solar
power is *much* more problematic, collectors become huge!  For
propulsion you *might* be able to use something like Magsails, cutting
down on fuel needs.  For power I think you are right..at least
radio-isotope power packs, and very likely fission reactors.

BTW, Mars would qualify as an airless world in our system.  However,
there are *almost* surely enough volitiles locked in the soil to
support a good population..if they can mine it, crack out and capture
the gases.  Could you maintain a civilization on Mars without outside
resource input (except solar of course)...if it is a matter of life or
death I'd guess you could.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:20:08 MST7
Subject: Van Rijn class Scout/Trader addendum

Well, the standard Brain-fingers interface failed me again, and I
forgot to add something to the design spec...it also includes
minimal hangar space for a 10-ton craft.

Bruce


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 17:20:34 -0400
Subject: Question on Traveller Chronicle #10

Hi,
I liked the TC #10, especially becauase of the Sol Rim stuff. I have
always liked the Solomani especially when DGP came out with Rats &
Cats.  The idea that they were the masters of genetics, and geneering
really appealled to me. 
The thought of sapient dolphins, apes, and other animals was really
cool. I have always had the picture in my head of a lowland gorilla in
battle dress with a FGMP.   I really liked the David Brin books that
use sapien dolphins and chimps.

Anyway that brings me to a question for Harold. In the introduction,
you mentioned more details about the dolphins and Vegans.  Is this
detail going include character generation rules.  I have the Best of
JTAS issue where they
talk about Dolphins, but the rules for generation, are based on animal
rules, so they aren't that useful for players or NPCs.

Lewis

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:42:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:24:44 -0800
>Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav
>
>On 16 Jul 96 at 7:17, derek stanley spewed:
>
>> You forgot Mister Bean and Red Dwarf.
>> 
>
>Yup...I did...thanks for the addition...
>

I con't believe no one has mentioned "Are You Being Served!"


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 17:58:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Realism

At 08:55 am 7/16/96 -0800, you wrote:
>>Exactly...much more important than splitting hairs and trying to  
>>break down basic assumptions.  In present day terms, none of this  
>>stuff really works, after all... 
>
>> (B) The Defense Department projects that have been working on weapons- 
>> grade lasers and particle weapons for the last 20 years will be real 
>> surprised to hear that, I'm sure.  So will the guys running the nuclear 
>> powerplants around the world... And I'm really surprised to find out 
>> that the computer I'm typing this on doesn't work, nor does the network 
>> it's hooked up to.  How are you reading this, anyway? 
>
>Yeah, they've had a whole lot of practical applications in the 
>field...  I remember all those particle weapons and lasers they used 
>in the Gulf War after all.  Yes, we are closer to those sort of 
>applications than Traveller postulates, and I will be the first to 
>admit that the old Tech Level tables do cry out for an 
>overhaul...which it sounds like they'll be getting in the new 
>edition...

        Pick up the recent Popular Science (the China special issue). In one
of the "What's New" blurbs there's a brief mention of a succesful test of a
laser weapon system in the Megawatt range...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 16 Jul 96 16:31:16 MS
Subject: SolSec Announcement #224

Cynthia said:
>ObTML: So, will this trend worsen in the Far Future (tm), or 
>reverse itself somewhere along the line?  I can see the Vilani 
>culture being much like Niven's "Safe at Any Speed" era,  
>and any kind of risk-taking behavior would be considered 
>"abnormal", "unhealthy", or even criminal.   
>I see the Terran/Solomani culture treating risk-taking as 
>a normal, even desirable facet of human behavior. 
 

Excellent, another closet Solomani supporter.  We'll defeat the lies of these 
Imperial propagandists yet!  Of course, if Grandfather really did breed the 
Vilani for luck, we may be in trouble here...

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 16 Jul 96 16:27:26 MS
Subject: Western Influence (No Cowboys)

 "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com> said:

>All this talk of 20th century culture has lead me to agree with another
>poster. Why is the Imperium so much like the 20th Century First World?  It
>seems obvious that there would be a *vast* diversity of cultures in the
>Imperium and most of them would look very foreign to us. 
>
>The easy answer is playability, but I see that as a cop-out.  Most players
>and GMs think nothing of role-playing in medieval Japan, Glorantha, or
>other fantasy settings with extremely foreign cultures.  Why must SF look
>like the 20th cen. US?  I hope the Folks as IG realize that the Imperium
>will be a whole lot more interesting if socio-cultural realism is given as
>high a priority as technical realism. 
>
>Comments?

Honestly, my Imperial citizen winds up in a society much more similar to the 
Roman Empire of 200 AD than that of 1996 AD New York.  However, unless you have 
a group of players with the time, education and skills to truly roleplay people 
from such a society, you will have a PC group of 20th-century characters.  The 
reality is that cultural biases and influences are deeply ingrained in all of 
us.  Many of us can get beyond them for some period of time, but they are 
always there, waiting for the right moment to make themselves known.  I get a 
great deal of enjoyment out of playing in or running a game where people have 
the time, skills and knowledge to pull off such a "deculturalization," but that 
does not always happen.  That does not mena that playing an rpg (not even 
Traveller necessarily) with 20th-century cultural assumptions is a bad thing; 
you can still present the players with socieities and situations foreign to 
their normal assumptions, and base your adventures on their reactions.

I was talking with a role-player friend of mine about the "Imperial citizen as 
20th-Century American" issue, and he pointed out something I had not previously 
considered.  If you have a Traveller campaign where Imperial citizens travel 
from world to world and spend a reasonable amount of time at each new world, 
you get a great opportunity for an "Innocents Abroad" style of campaign.  In 
effect, the PCs are playing themselves, and are confronting very unusual, 
different and decidedly non-20th century US societies.  The reactions of your 
players are real reactions, going beyond simple roleplay assumption.

As for role-playing in medieval Japan, Glorantha or other "foreign" settings, 
the truth is that, unless you have a 15th-century Samurai in your group, 
chances are your players are playing 20th-century characters, or 20th-century 
stereotypes of what 15th Century Japan was like.   That's the fun part 
sometimes.  The Western aspects of Traveller are artifacts of the Western 
nature of its authors.  One thing that is sadly true in RPGs is that the 
foreign or unusual cultural backgrounds (Empire of the Petal Throne is one of 
my favorites, BTW) do not sell well in the US, and when you are looking to get 
90% of your revenues from US sales, well...

Why must the game resemble 20th century USA?  There is no requirement that it 
must; in CT and MT there was not very much about the "culture" of Imperial 
society, and you had a good deal of leeway in how you really operated the 
overall society.  In TNE this was also true; most cultural focus was on 
individual worlds in the Reformation Coalition, many of which were very 
un-American in outlook and demeanor.  There are USA-centric cultural influences 
that crop up; some of them are subtle and interesting, and some are obtuse and 
annoying.  As a student of history, though, I have seen a lot of non-American 
references in there as well.   Some of the cultures and societies seem to be 
strongly based on non-Western civilizations of the past and present, and little 
odd bits poke out from time to time even in references to Imperial society.

Basically, I just run the society as I see fit, within the bounds of the 
minimal info presented.  Some of the more interesting adventure ideas have come 
from having bits of detail from GDW appear that seem at odds with the 
established campaign; resolving it becomes an adventure or more.  When a lot of 
detail shows up and I don't like it, I either move the campaign elsewhere or 
ignore the info I don't like.  GDW and IG may have canon, but I have cannon 
(and other weapons) on my side.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
My 20th-Century American Employers have no opinion in this matter

------------------------------

From: "Robert Jolliffe" <fibbert@golden.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:10:53 +0000
Subject: Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****

> Date:          Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:23:49 -0500
> To:            traveller@MPGN.COM
> From:          Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
> Subject:       Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
> Reply-to:      traveller@MPGN.COM

> >From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
> >Subject: Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
> >
> >Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> >> Whatever it is, it *isn't* a laser.
> >
> >ITS THE WAVE MOTION GUN!!!
> 
> Dear God, those poor People!!!  :)
> 
> > 
> >> But I'd say that wrecking the output end of anything sending out
> >> nuclear level amounts of energy is going to result in the energy being
> >> deposited in the ship, rather than the target.
> >> 
> >> Me, I'm surprised that there was that much *left* of the ship,
> >> considering what they did to the cities.
> >> 
> >> ps. Assuming we can recover enough data from the wreckage to build our
> >> own, one would hope that all involved have the brains to make our
> >> vessels look as *little* like theirs as is practical. :-)
> >
> >Ya, but send in the marines first.  Imagine the crew on one of those 
> >puppies...  Imagaine how many burbly green psionic alien queen headed 
> >psychopaths might have survived a crash on one of those things.
> 
> Not to mention their super powered exoskeletal space suits (can you say
> Battledress?)
> 

Hummm ... Sounds like a good sequel to me.
> 
> Paul  {tiger}
> 
> 
> 

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 08:47:45 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

derek stanley wrote:

>Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>> 
>> On 15 Jul 96 at 16:06, Eris Reddoch spewed:
>> 
>> > On 07/15/96 at 12:40 PM,  Larry Hadley
>> > <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:
>> >
>> >
>>>>>>...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothin
>>>>>>of British pop culture.
>> >
>>>Want me to tell you what we American's know about British pop culture?
>>>
>>>Benny Hill, The Avengers, The Good Life, Dr Who, The Saint, The Young
>>>Ones, Sherlock Holmes, Agaitha Cristie, and Simply Fabulous!  <g>
>> 
>>Er...a bit of an addition to this list.  The Goon Show, The Blackadder 
>>Series, Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Ripping Yarns, the collected works 
>>of Shelley, Byron, Shakespeare, Samuel Johnson, Charles Dickens...a ton 
>>of rock bands from the last 30 years...
>
>You forgot Mister Bean and Red Dwarf.
>
>Derek Stanley


        I can't believe you guys are forgetting the Hitchhiker's Guide to
the Galaxy!!!!!

        Excuse me while I go scream in a corner for a while :).


+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                         From the desk of either                       |
|                                                                       |
|    Roderick Darroch Elliott                  James Stephen Wishart    |
|                                                                       |
|                           gpvll@hk.super.net                          |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 96 00:29:00 UTC 0000
Subject: Sales figures

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, David Jaques-Watson wrote:

> The original reason for suggesting that Book2 and Book5 be used is this:
> _High Guard_ sold 200,000 copies. _Megatraveller_ sold 20,000 copies. TNE
> (including FF&S) sold 2,000 copies. Each rules set dropped an order of

Where do these numbers come from? High Guard may very well have sold
200,000 copies, but 20,000 is low for all MT products combined. The
figure of 2000 for all TNE products combined is ludricrously low.

 Loren ("I know what was left in the warehouse when we shut down") Wiseman


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:30:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> I hope everyone found it as useful.  Working in a shipyard, especially a
> shipyard that does military work, I could see incredible potential for
> running a ship construction campaign.  Of course, I wouldn't want to run a
> shipyard in an RPG, but to be on the other end, where the shipyard was
> building my ship...I think that could be very enjoyable!!

Oh, I don't know.  Working in a shipyard could be fun for an adventure or 
two...depending on what the referee and player(s) want to make of it. :)  
Any job could be fun that way.  The old everyworker wish of getting back 
at the boss could be explored rather dramatically, for instance. :)

> The two types are basically the same.  Frame construction basically starts
> with the internal structure, that is, the angle, channel, and beams, and
> adds the components and the hull plating to this frame, hence (I've alwayse
> wanted to use that word) the name Frame construction.
> 
> Hull construction begins with the hull plating, held in place with gravtic
> tech and/or minimal internal structure.  To this basic hull is added the
> necessary internal structure to hold up under the necessary G's and the
> necessary other components.  This design is particularly helpful when some
> of the components (ie J6) are secret military components and will not be
> added untill after the vessel is delivered.

Ah, I get it now.  Thanks for the explanation.


> 
> Hope this helps.  Let me know if you have any more questions.
> 

It did.  Thanks again.  I'll be looking forward to the time formula 
changes you mentioned.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 18:37:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

At 11:09 AM 7/16/96 -0400, Derek wrote:

>Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
>> On 15 Jul 96 at 16:06, Eris Reddoch spewed:
 
>> > On 07/15/96 at 12:40 PM,  Larry Hadley
>> > <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:
>>>>>>...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothin
>>>>>>of British pop culture.
>>>Want me to tell you what we American's know about British pop culture?
>>>
>>>Benny Hill, The Avengers, The Good Life, Dr Who, The Saint, The Young
>>>Ones, Sherlock Holmes, Agaitha Cristie, and Simply Fabulous!  <g>
>> 
>>Er...a bit of an addition to this list.  The Goon Show, The Blackadder 
>>Series, Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Ripping Yarns, the collected works 
>>of Shelley, Byron, Shakespeare, Samuel Johnson, Charles Dickens...a ton 
>>of rock bands from the last 30 years...
>
>You forgot Mister Bean and Red Dwarf.

and Winnie the Pooh, Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, H.G. Wells, a royal
family we can admire because they aren't ours, punk rock, and the Holy three
of BritRock:   The Who,  The Kinks, and Queen.
+--------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net |
|    Professional Driver - Traveller Guru    |
|--------------------------------------------|
|     Now Appearing At:  (Note New URL!)     |
|  http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.htm   |
+--------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:46:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Mars\Moon Stuff

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, Tom Miller wrote:

> Also, with a base on the moon, a lot of people say "what's the point?".
> Indeed, what is the point of a base on the moon?  What does everyone think?
> I basically have this idea:

I agree with your ideas (moon as rallying point and as a potential launch 
site).  I have a touch of the malthusian outlook - I believe we will 
exhaust Earth's resources at some point, and will therefore need another 
souce of resources.  I'd rather we find those resources sooner than later.
But then, I'm a sci-fi fan (like everyone else here). :)  We're kind of 
preaching to the choir. :)

So how does one go about winning the masses over?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 20:50:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Culture and Realism 

On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> All this talk of 20th century culture has lead me to agree with another
> poster. Why is the Imperium so much like the 20th Century First World?  It
> seems obvious that there would be a *vast* diversity of cultures in the
> Imperium and most of them would look very foreign to us. 
> 
> The easy answer is playability, but I see that as a cop-out.  Most players
> 
> Comments?

I agree.  Heck, if they wanted to do a bit of research, they could pass 
off many Earth-cultures as alien, since most people know little about 
cultures other than their own.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 21:00:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Sales figures

On Wed, 17 Jul 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

> On Tue, 16 Jul 1996, David Jaques-Watson wrote:
> 
> > The original reason for suggesting that Book2 and Book5 be used is this:
> > _High Guard_ sold 200,000 copies. _Megatraveller_ sold 20,000 copies. TNE
> > (including FF&S) sold 2,000 copies. Each rules set dropped an order of
> 
> Where do these numbers come from? High Guard may very well have sold
> 200,000 copies, but 20,000 is low for all MT products combined. The
> figure of 2000 for all TNE products combined is ludricrously low.

Loren,

Would it be possible that what was actually referred to was the quantity 
sold of High Guard, MT's ship design rules (boxed set or individual 
book), and FF&S (again, in the boxed set, or sold by itself)?  The 
concern seemed to be the quantity of each set of ship design rules that 
was sold, as opposed to the total quantity of material for each edition 
of Traveller.

Does that make the numbers seem more accurate?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #261
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